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2015: Jonathan Does Not Deserve A Second Term – Cardinal Okogie… Says CAN Has No Leader
former Archbishop of Lagos and first
president of Christian Association of
Nigeria (CAN), in this interview with
MICHAEL UCHEBUAKU speaks about the
politicisation of CAN, involvement of
Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor in the $9.3 million
cash-for-arm deal, among other issues.
How is life in retirement and what is a
typical day like for you now that you are
retired?
Well, it is still the same life, except that we
do not engage ourselves in too much
pastoral work as we used to do when on
active duty. On a typical day, I wake up in
the morning like any other person. I say
my prayers, go for my Mass, then do some
exercises and go for a walk because of my
leg. Then I take my breakfast and after that
I sit down and people start coming to see
me. And I will be there sitting in my office
until 2 or 3pm listening and answering
people's questions. That is what a typical
day looks like.
What are your most memorable
moments as Archbishop of Lagos?
Doing my duties gave me the greatest joy.
Anytime I am with people, each time I am
officiating I know I'm doing what God wants
me to do, I derive the greatest joy. But
now, it's not that I'm not doing what God
wants me to do, but the concentration is
more now on my spiritual life. That time
was different from now. That time, even
sometimes when I would be saying my
prayers, I would feel so tired, then I would
say, God I know you understand, I would
be trying to justify being tired while saying
my prayers. I don't know how I can justify
such a thing before God.
But now, I can fully concentrate on my
spiritual life without distractions. I became
an Archbishop on the 17th of June 1973. I
spent 39 years as Archbishop of Lagos.
Looking back, I never even imagined that I
would become a bishop, not to talk of an
archbishop. My entire mind when I was in
the seminary was to become a priest. Pure
and simple! But when that work comes,
what can you do? Since it was the will of
God that I become a bishop, no way, I can't
run away. So that's how it is.
What were your saddest moments as
Archbishop of Lagos?
Well, there are a few things that really
demoralised me. For example, when you
talk to people and you advise them, they
don't take your advice. Then in later years
they regret and say, ah, 'this man said it
and I should have done it.' But it pains me.
It pains me in the sense that they think
you are a liar. I tried to make them
understand this is the way I feel.
I haven't got the monopoly of wisdom, no,
I am only telling you I try to address issues
the way I see it, the way the good Lord
wants me to say it. And I believe that when
I open my mouth to talk, it is God that
gives me the inspiration. For example,
look at what is happening in the country
today. When the Head of State (Goodluck
Jonathan) was still the deputy, I have said
it several times.
Before he became the Head of State I had
an audience with him. We were four in the
room. I don't want to give you the names
of the other two people who were there
besides me and Jonathan. So after the
audience, Jonathan said to me, "Bishop,
can you pray for me?" And I said, "Sorry,
Your Excellency, what do you want, what do
you want me to pray for?" He was shocked
and said to me, "What? You're the first
pastor that has asked me this kind of
question. All the other pastors, when I ask
them for prayer they tell me to bow my
head and bow my head and they pray.
How can you ask me what do I want from
God?" So I said, "Sorry o, your Excellency,
don't be annoyed, but this is the right way
to pray. I want to be able to concentrate on
what you are asking for; to let God open
his hand and give this man this particular
thing that he is asking for. I can say any
kind of prayer for you, but to me, that is
not enough." So he said, "That is okay.
Don't you know I will be going in for the
election?" And I said to him, "You have
won, that is no problem, but you will not
rule." He said, "What? What do you mean
that I will not rule?" And I said, "Yes sir,
others will rule. Those around you will
rule. They are the ones that will rule in
your place." What is happening now? This is
the kind of thing that pains me.
If you consider the example I have given
you now, that is how my life is. I don't want
to tell anybody lies. I don't want to fool
anybody. Shakespeare said "flattery is the
food of fools". That is what is going on now
with many of our religious leaders. They
flatter people because they want money.
They want to be in the Head of State's good
book. That is what is happening today. One
with God is always a majority even if they
are going to kill me tomorrow.
When I was in the war front, I didn't die,
not a scratch on my body. It's a pity
Benjamin Adekunle is dead now. God bless
his soul. He was my boss. The other one
was Godwin Ali. We were all under him.
They were real soldiers. I wasn't a
combatant officer, I was only a chaplain,
and I did the little that God wanted me to
do and came out without problem.
As a former and founding president of
the Christian Association of Nigeria
(CAN), you fought against several
perceived attempts to Islamise Nigeria,
especially through membership of the
Organisation of Islamic Conference
(OIC); how do you view Boko Haram and
the threat it poses to the country?
We sensed these things coming, especially
during the OIC period. Those of us on the
Christian side, that was one of the reasons
we opposed it. Even though Babangida and
all the others, and even some Catholics on
the panel saw nothing wrong with it. I still
remember telling (Jubril) Aminu and
others to be careful, that this will not
augur well for the nation.
They said to me, "What do you mean?"
Now, look at what we are having. It is not
just a question of the Islamisation of
Nigeria we are talking of? We are talking of
the future of Nigeria. With these things we
are bringing up, what will it lead us to in
future? Politicians and so-called
intellectuals get up and make statements
that can destroy the nation. And what does
the government do? Nothing.
The government do nothing to them. They
allow them to go scot-free. In a civilised
nation, they will be called to answer for it.
Once you make any careless statement,
you must pay for it. You will be called to
question. What must a Head of State, the
father of the nation be afraid of? If he
cannot die for the nation, why is he a Head
of State? For example, if I cannot die for
my faith, why am I an Archbishop? Why am
I a Cardinal? These soldiers calling
themselves Boko Haram are doing what
they are doing because they believe in it.
But it is there in the Quran and in the
Bible that you shouldn't shed blood.
I read it in the paper that somebody said if
I don't win this election, it will be too hot
for somebody. And those who are of that
opinion are still around, and they are there
laughing. So who is at fault? Who is the
fool? And we are calling on God, when God
gave us a peaceful nation. We want to
destroy it. I just pray that sooner or later
things will be settled. 2015 is coming. That
is another one. So when you are talking of
Boko Haram, and the threat it poses to this
nation, we caused We caused it. Some
years back, during the time of Maitatsine,
it took us time before we stopped it.
This is how it is. You don't play with your
armed forces anyhow. You don't swing your
sword anyhow, because it can cut you and
cut your enemies. This is what is
happening. Look at the number of people
that are being killed. Now, if these Boko
Haram people even succeeded, what would
be the condition of the people in those
areas in the north? Will Boko Haram be
able to feed them or educate them? Now,
look at the education.
Everything is going down daily in the north.
Tomorrow now, they would say the south is
cheating the north. Can't they open their
eyes to see the future? Can't they see? So
this is the problem. This is what we were
fighting for then, when I was president of
the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN).
While I was president of CAN, I was the
leader of the Christian team to the so-
called conference.
(Babagana) Kingibe was the intermediary
then, begging the Christians and telling us
that the Head of State (IBB) is worried.
Then when he was knocking on our doors
begging and saying the Head of State (IBB)
is worried, I asked him, "Who caused it?"
Remember that all of us have consciences.
We all have a conscience and we are going
to answer for it before God.
Do you think the government should
consider negotiating with Boko Haram?
My own opinion is this: When you talk of
Boko Haram, who are they? How can you
say you are going to negotiate with a
nebulous group? They have not declared
their identity. Are you going to be talking
to the air? The people you want to
negotiate with, who are they? Have they
even given you their own terms? You can't
know or see them because they are
nebulous people.
And if you're bold enough they will come
and kill you. And you yourself, you need to
know what you are negotiating for? Did you
offend them? You are just sitting down and
somebody tells you to quit. Look at all the
innocent people they have killed, and
taken innocent people (Chibok girls)
hostage, and there is supposed to be a
governor in that place. What was the
governor doing, if he has no hand in it? If I
were the Head of State, he would be the
first person I would arrest.
Where do they (Boko Haram) get their
arms from? How did they enter? There are
many questions to be answered. And then
you are now talking of negotiation. For
what? What if they say for negotiation the
Head of State should quit? Will he be ready
to quit? Or what if they say government
should give them so and so people in
exchange for the Chibok girls, what kind of
negotiation is that? To me, I don't buy it at
all.
Do you think the current leadership of
the Christian Association of Nigeria
(CAN) is actually acting like an arm of
the federal government or an
appendage of the PDP as some critics
say?
My brother, I must tell you this; CAN
leadership today is zero. CAN has no
leader. Thank God you are talking to one of
the founders of CAN, and I was there as
their leader for eight years. Then, the
whole country knew that CAN had a leader,
not by my own might, but by God. Because
what we were doing then, we had only one
voice. But the problem we have now is that
people are struggling for power in
unrighteous way.
And because he is struggling for power, he
can do little or nothing. Power doesn't
come like that. Look at David in the
Scriptures. Look at Solomon. Even look at
Herbert Macaulay and other early
nationalists. You don't force yourself to
power. This is what is happening.
Somebody is telling you that if you don't
allow him to rule, you will not rule well. So
the person struggling for power is not
going to do better. Now, election is coming
in 2015 and some people are already
saying they must be there. They will not
allow the electorate to decide.
They are ready with their moneybags.
Where did they get the money from?
Where did they get the $9.3m that has
been seized by South Africa from? They
said it was to buy arms. We have to be very
careful in this nation. What is the man
(Oritsejafor) looking for? If you call
yourself a man of God, then you should
rely on God. Why should he be jumping up
and down? But because he was not elected,
not chosen by God, that is what is
happening. Today, he wants to build a
university, tomorrow he wants to be
something else, next tomorrow he wants
to be like other people.
Then why is he there as CAN president? In
our day and time, election was done by the
groups and we know how we go about it. I
think I ruled for two terms, eight years. If
there was any trouble anywhere in the
country, they would come to the centre.
And it wouldn't take time. We would just
come to the centre and solve it and I will
speak out and the whole nation would
listen. Sometimes, you would hear people
say, "Has Okogie spoken?" "What did
Okogie say?" There was unity, because
that's what we are looking for.
And we didn't buy the position. But this
time around, because they are rushing to
be in power, nobody obeys them. And look
at how they are making mockery of
themselves and making mockery of
"religion". Is that religion? Today, they are
with the federal government. We saw the
writing on the wall when we left. The very
first person that took over started
romancing with Obasanjo. Then one or two
CAN presidents tried their best before it
got to this present CAN president,
Oritsejafor. This is not right. Look at how
Oritsejafor has fallen, from grace to grass.
And he is not going down alone, he is also
staining the name of the Head of State. Of
course, why not? If you eat with those with
dirty hands, then you must be dirty. And
this is the man that they are saying should
come and rule the nation for a second
term. They think people are silly. They
have not even answered about this $9.3m,
and when the matter got to the House of
Reps, they said they should throw it out.
Can you imagine? Are they not the ones
making laws on money laundering? And
this is a case of real money laundering.
These are lawmakers.
.
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